Note: This is based on a machine-generated transcript. We've tidied it up, but we're sorry if any glitches have slipped through.
Kate Browne:
Hey, Sally.
Sally McMullen:
Hey, Kate.
Kate Browne:
Pop quiz question for you: How many people do you reckon in Australia own a pet?
Sally McMullen:
Maybe, like, half?
Kate Browne:
It's actually more than that. It's three in five households, so that's sort of around 60-something percent.
Sally McMullen:
My landlord's really holding out on me. They still won't let me get a pet.
Kate Browne:
Oh, well, you could be one of those households, that does suck. I have a cat, and, you know, I've really noticed when I'm out and about, you know, more and more people seem to have dogs, the internet allows us now to share everything about our pets, so I feel like we're a pet-heavy country. And it turns out, I did some research, we really are. We in Australia have like one of the highest pet ownership rates in the world, so there's no secret we love our critters. 67% of those pets are cats or dogs. Are you team cat or team dog?
Sally McMullen:
I feel like I love them both equally, but more so, I'm team rabbit.
Kate Browne:
Ooh, controversial.
Sally McMullen:
I know, I'm so unique.
Kate Browne:
They are pretty cute.
Sally McMullen:
Welcome to Pocket Money, a show where dogs are the best kind of people.
Kate Browne:
They certainly are. And if you're like me and it feels that you see more and more dogs out and about and more fur parents showing off their pets on Instagram, there is a reason for that. According to a study, the percentage of people adding a pet to their household is actually growing year on year on year. Now, I don't know about you guys, but I'm seeing an awful lot of cute little dogs in the dog park, dogs with little squishy faces, big eyes, pugs.
Sally McMullen:
Frenchies, bulldogs.
Kate Browne:
Snuffling away. Every second meme seems to have a pug or a Frenchie on it doing something cute. My kids have so much paraphernalia with pugs on it, it's not funny.
Sally McMullen:
And there's no denying it, these dogs are super cute. I know it's the highlight of like every Saturday morning when I see them at whichever cafe I'm frequenting. But these dogs do come at a cost, and that's what we're going to be talking about on today's episode.
Kate Browne:
Today we're going to be talking to Dr Sarah Zito. She's a vet and a senior scientific officer for RSPCA Australia. Sarah is going to give us the lowdown on what a lot of us may not know, which is the dark side of these adorable little dogs. So if you're thinking about getting a dog in your life, or you know someone else who is, this episode is definitely for you.
Kate Browne:
So, Sarah, what's the key issue with these cute little squishy-faced dogs we see? We know there's pugs, there's bulldogs, there's French bulldogs, you know, and they've got little button eyes and squishy faces. What are some issues with these dogs that perhaps people don't know about?
Dr Sarah Zito:
The main issues with these dogs is actually, the very features that make them look so cute to us are the features that are causing them quite significant health and welfare issues. So what's happened is, over time, they've developed a shorter and wider skull, their bottom jaw is much longer than their top jaw, so their top jaw's much shorter. But everything inside there, so all of the airway passages and so on, the soft tissue structures, they've stayed the same, so now they're squished into this very small and abnormal shape and that disrupts the airflow and stops the animal being able to breathe properly. And that is the main welfare issue. They also have some other issues as well, with their bulging eyes, they can get quite significant trauma to those eyes, both because they're just sticking out too much and their eyelids can't close over them properly, and so they can get corneal ulcers from their eyes drying out. They can also actually get scratches and even in like the worst-case scenario, they can have them pop out and that is obviously very, very painful and can involve the animal having to have the eye removed.
Kate Browne:
So I've noticed down in my local dog park obviously a lot of pugs, and they're always kind of making these little wheezy snuffling noises, which is very cute. Tell us about that. Why do they do that?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Yep, so it is because of these airway malformations, and unfortunately, although it might be cute, it's really abnormal and actually indicates that the animal is suffering. It means that the dog can't get air in properly. So there's a number of reasons why that might happen. Their nostrils are really quite narrowed, so they actually find it difficult to get the air in through that reduced narrowed space. They also have a normal-sized soft palate, which is that bit at the top of your throat that hangs down to where your windpipe is, and actually what happens is, it's too long for the now-shortened face, it hangs down and gets in the way of the air coming in and out of their windpipe and that's when you get them doing things like snorting and reverse sneezing and gulping and so on. And they'll often do sort of like a coughy type thing where they're trying to clear that soft palate out of the way. And they can also have a narrow trachea, so that's their windpipe, so again, you know, that causes a smaller, narrower pipe for the air to go through. And they really do struggle to get air both in and out and it causes them a lot of trouble.
Sally McMullen:
Yeah, that's horrible. And with a lot of these – I suppose – designed deformities, a lot of these dogs have to go through procedures and surgeries to get a lot of these issues fixed, right?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Yeah, that's correct. And actually, not enough of them do have those corrective surgeries. One of the things that I think is little known, is that those kind of surgical procedures really need to be done quite early on in the dog's life to have the most benefit, so really, in the first between 6 and 12 months of age. Because there are actually long-term consequences of struggling to breathe all the time. It actually causes changes within the chest cavity because there's so much pressure from the dog trying to get air in and out, and so they actually get worse over time, so the earlier those corrective surgeries are done, the better for the dog.
Sally McMullen:
Wow, sounds like a bit of an expensive experience for dog owners as well. What kind of potential costs can an owner expect if they do have a pug or a bulldog, you know, when they do have these health problems?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Yeah, so it's hard to give an amount because it varies so greatly and it depends when it's done. So the earlier it's done, the less complications there are likely to be because the animal hasn't yet developed all of these secondary problems, but you're still looking at many thousands of dollars. So it might be anything from $3,000 to $6,000, and that's kind of best-case scenario, really. If they are specialist surgeries, the dogs do need very intensive care afterwards. I mean, you're messing around with their airway, so they need to be in intensive care, they need to be cared for until all swelling's gone down and they feel, sort of, more like they're able to breathe again. And it can be very painful, so they need a lot of pain relief and so on. They can be even more expensive if you leave it, because obviously then the problems are worse, but then they might also have other problems like having the eye issues and if we're talking, especially animals like the bulldog, they generally can't give birth on their own, so anyone who's thinking of breeding them will need to factor in the cost of a cesarean, and that's, you know, a really awful outcome for animal welfare as well as for the owners.
Kate Browne:
So how did these breeds come to be like this? You know, were they always like this, or is this something that's been bred into them?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Yeah, so they weren't always this extreme. I mean, obviously, the breeds have been around for a long time, but what happens is, the breeders breed to a breed standard, and that's a very set way of determining how a dog should look and those change over time. And what has unfortunately happened over, sort of, the past, you know, 50 to 100 years and even more so recently, is that those more extreme features, because people do find them quite cute, the very flat faces and the protruding eyes and the wide heads, those have actually been selected for so they're just becoming more and more extreme, unfortunately. Whereas, what we would suggest is a much better way to breeders to breed for the health and welfare of the animals.
Kate Browne:
Tell me, I've seen a photo of the British bulldog from about 100 years ago. Could you tell me what that dog looked like before we started really messing with its genes?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Yeah, so quite a lot different to what they do now. So they had a much more normal-looking face, so their snout is much longer, their head is not as broad, their eyes are not as protruding, and that means that they had a lot less health problems. They weren't also quite as wide-set. So at the moment, you know, the problem with them trying to give birth normally is that their shoulders are too wide, their heads are so huge, that actually they can't give birth normally, and that wasn't the case originally, because the cesareans weren't even available at that stage.
Kate Browne:
So British bulldogs literally can only give birth via cesarean?
Dr Sarah Zito:
The majority of them can only give birth via cesarean.
Kate Browne:
Wow.
Sally McMullen:
Yeah, if that doesn't tell you that it's unnatural, I don't know what will.
Kate Browne:
Yeah, that's a massive red flag. What's your sense? Like people see them, they look adorable, they think the snuffling's adorable, they want one, they see, you know, pictures of them on mugs and in memes and on badges. How many people do you think actually go and get one of these dogs and know what they're taking on in terms of the health issues? Do you think that knowledge is pretty low?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Unfortunately, I do. There's been a lot of effort to try and change that, but there still needs to be a lot of awareness-raising just in the general population. Because people regularly tell us how horrified and surprised they are that these dogs have such health issues and they think that those snorting, sniffling, gasping sounds are all normal and cute when they see those dogs out on the street. But, like we talked about, they're not. They're not normal and they do indicate a dog that is suffering.
Kate Browne:
Because these dogs, I know, are not [cheap] to buy either. I've seen French bulldogs for sale on Gumtree for a couple of thousand dollars. So you're looking at a dog that's already high cost, but you know, maybe you're maxing out on the cost of the dog, not understanding you're about to inherit potentially thousands of dollars more and more problems.
Dr Sarah Zito:
Absolutely. And I think that's something that people need to consider really carefully. So there's a lot of things that people should ask themselves when they are thinking about getting a dog, and those are things about their lifestyle, how much money they have, what kind of breed or crossbreed they're looking at, what kind of activity level does the dog have, how much time are they going to have to spend with the dog, what kind of health care costs are they going to need to put aside? And these brachycephalic dogs, these little squishy-faced cute little dogs are very expensive ones to choose, unfortunately.
Kate Browne:
I can imagine a scenario where someone's like saved up to buy one of these gorgeous dogs and then literally doesn't have the money when they're hit with a $5,000 vet bill within the first year, which, you know, I've heard can be common. The saddest phrase I think I've heard in, you know, the vet world, is economic euthanasia, which is just having to put your animal down because you can't afford to pay for its health treatments.
Dr Sarah Zito:
Yeah, it is really, as a vet, you know, seen a lot of animals and had to deal with those situations, it's devastating to the owner, it's devastating to the vet, and obviously, it's devastating to the animal because they end up losing their life when you could do something to help them. But really what we want is for these animals not to have these problems in the first place. So what we would like to see is a change towards breeding less extreme versions that do have a much more normal head shape, and therefore have a much more normal life and ability to breathe, because that's really important and it's just not fair on them to have their whole life struggling to breathe.
Sally McMullen:
So we've come to one of our favourite parts of every Pocket Money episode where we play a little game of overrated or underrated. So we'll give you a topic and then you can tell us if it is overrated or underrated. So it's a bit of a quickfire, you know, give us your answer, and then if you do have a reason why, feel free to give us that too. We're going to jump in with adopting a dog: overrated or underrated?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Underrated. I think adopting a dog, if it's done properly, is one of life's most joyful experiences. I mean, they're amazing companions, they're beautiful creatures, we love them and they give so much back to us. But also underrated in the fact that I don't think people give it quite as much thought as they should. Just like, they should be thinking about the amount of cost involved and the amount of activity, how long they'll be able to spend with the dog at home and not leaving that dog alone or unsupervised or unenriched for long periods of time. So, yeah, it can be a wonderful experience, but we need to do it carefully.
Kate Browne:
All right. Ooh, a bit of a controversial one. Dog raincoats: underrated or overrated?
Dr Sarah Zito:
I think that some dogs tolerate them quite well. So I'd say they're probably a bit overrated because a lot of people seem to use them because they look cute as opposed to because the dog needs them. And a lot of dogs don't really enjoy being dressed. However, there are definitely dogs that do fine with clothing like that on, so there are some things that they don't do so well with and little rain hats and so on, I think would be not very well tolerated by most dogs, but the actual coat itself can be good for some dogs, especially those dogs that do get very chilly.
Sally McMullen:
Next one is most underrated pet.
Dr Sarah Zito:
I'd have to say cats, and I know that might seem a little bit strange. I probably should explain why I say that and I think it's because a lot of people who don't have cats or don't spend time with cats don't realise what wonderful animals they are, full of such personality and so much love. And, you know, the way that a lot of people keep them so that they're kind of allowed to run around and do their own thing, they just don't see them as much as they could. Whereas if you spend a lot of time with your cat, particularly if your cat is confined, you know, to your property, or it's an indoor cat, the things you learn about their personality and the joy that you get from spending time with them, and they from spending time with you is just beyond belief. I think cats get a little bit of the raw end of the deal sometimes.
Kate Browne:
My theory too is that, if you haven't actually had a cat living in your home, you might visit someone else and the cat will just rack off, like, you know, because it doesn't know you, it'll, you know, hide, so people say they're unfriendly – except for my cat who weirdly loves every single person she's ever met, but that's a bit unusual, she is a bit of a dog at heart, she runs to the front door – but yeah, I think, I agree. They are totally underrated and they're so affectionate. All right, we've got another question. Oh, this isn't quite underrated/overrated, but Franko has put this in here, our producer. Best dog name you've ever heard of?
Dr Sarah Zito:
I'm going to give one that just springs to mind. I've heard a lot of dog names and there's a lot of really great ones, but a friend of mine has recently got a little dog and he is quite a solid unit and he's called Mack, like a Mack truck, so I thought that that was a pretty good name.
Kate Browne:
I have a friend who has a cat called Satan. And he's done that deliberately, so when the vet comes out, he calls out – his name is Satan Presley – so the vet comes out and calls out Satan Presely, which gives my friend a kick every single time.
Kate Browne:
Back to our little squishy-faced dogs. There is an official name for these dogs. Can you tell me what it is and how you pronounce it?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Yeah, so they're called brachycephalic, which basically means short-faced. And so we call them brachycephalic dogs and actually there are other brachycephalic animals too. So cats like Persians, they're also brachycephalic. There are also some rabbits as well, so like the lion or the Netherland dwarf, they are also quite flat-faced, and they suffer some similar problems, which I think is something a lot of people are not aware of.
Sally McMullen:
And if someone does, you know, have their heart set on one of these dogs, they've heard of some of the issues, you know, that come with them, but, you know, their heart is set on them, what do they need to know before they take one on?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Okay, so they definitely need to know about the health issues and be really aware of the fact that they are perpetuating a breed type that is causing welfare problems, and they're getting a dog that is going to struggle their entire lives, so they need to be okay with that. They also need to be okay with the fact that they're probably going to need to spend a significant amount of money to make that dog at least comfortable, and that probably will involve some surgical correction. So they need to be prepared for that. They also need to be prepared for the fact that these dogs are high risk when they're travelling. So they need to be in air conditioning, probably at home as well as in the travel, but particularly anyone who might be thinking of flying their animal anywhere, so if they might have a move interstate or overseas at some point in the future, they need to think really carefully about whether they get a dog like this, because we do not recommend that these dogs fly because the risk to their health is so significant.
Kate Browne:
Sarah, is that because of being in the air is going to put them under stress, or is it the heat being in, you know, I know animals don't, well, the animals aren't flying up in first class having cocktails, so what is it about flying that can impact these breeds in particular?
Dr Sarah Zito:
It's a combination of factors. So, absolutely, the heat can be a problem, and particularly in our country, we obviously have quite a hot country and most of the problems happen over the hot period of the summer, but it's also the time when more people are travelling with their pet. But it's not just that, it's also potentially the reduced oxygen at that height. And already these dogs are struggling to get enough oxygen because they can't breathe properly. Stress is another big factor though, and these dogs don't cope well with stress, just like they don't cope well with exercise, like they don't cope well with heat. And when they get stressed, they struggle even more to breathe, and then, you know, they're in big, big trouble. And the other thing that is quite a problem is – and this is not just brachycephalic dogs or the flat-faced dogs, it's any animal – the animals are not used to being in a crate, they're not used to being in an aircraft, so it's a very stressful experience for them. And people can help by training them to get used to a crate and training them to the noises and so on to reduce the amount of stress they're going to experience, but they're a high-risk breed in many, many ways or a high-risk set of breeds in many ways.
Kate Browne:
They sound very high maintenance across the board. Like you mentioned the heat stress, you know, I've heard even, sort of, what we would consider a mild summer's day can absolutely knock a pug or a Frenchie flat because they don't do well with heat. In terms of being high maintenance, so pet insurance, is this something you'd recommend for these dogs? Is it worth it? And if you were going to take it out, when should you take it out?
Dr Sarah Zito:
I do think it's something that people should really carefully consider, because it does provide a way to pay for really expensive things that you may not have the upfront money for. You do need to be a little bit selective and you need to do your research, just like with most things. There are differences in insurances and some of them will exclude inherited or breed-related conditions, and so obviously with one of these kind of animals, that is not a good thing, you want to make sure that it is going to cover what we already know they're going to have. And the other thing that you made the point about, when should you do it? Well, the earlier the better, because as soon as they have a problem, that's going to be excluded. And so, they are going to have problems, so you need to do it pretty much immediately so that those problems are going to be included in the insurance. And the other thing that people should just think about and check into is that there is the possibility that when some insurances renew each year, they will exclude conditions that have been claimed on previously. I think that's becoming less common, but it's certainly not something you want, because say you had a dog like this, these problems are not gonna go away and so you want your insurance to cover them for their life.
Kate Browne:
Yeah, and I guess just you've touched on it in some of the other answers, Sarah, but just, what are, like, you know, three things you'd tell someone before they're going to get a dog in their life? What would be the three pieces of advice that you want people to know and think about?
Dr Sarah Zito:
So the big one is to think about it really carefully and do your research about the kind of dog that is going to work best, and that may not be the kind of dog that looks most attractive to you. So if you are someone who likes running, getting a pug is probably not a great idea because they're not going to go running with you.
Kate Browne:
Definitely identifying with a pug all of a sudden.
Dr Sarah Zito:
So yeah, just making sure that you pick an animal that is going to fit in with your lifestyle and who you can give the best care to possible and give them what they need as well as getting what you need from the relationship. I would encourage people to think about adopting an animal from a rescue group or a shelter or a welfare organisation because there are so many animals that that need good homes and so many wonderful animals waiting for homes and, you know, they have been checked, they've been vet checked, behaviour checked, they've been vaccinated, they've been desexed and microchipped. So all of that's an upfront cost and the work is done for you, so they're an excellent choice. And just another little note, it'd be good if people consider older animals as well. I mean, there's a lot of those animals waiting for homes and they can make absolutely wonderful companions. You know what you're getting because their personalities are already formed. They're not generally nearly as much, sort of, upfront hard work as a puppy might be. And you know, these golden oldies, they're wonderful. I love old animals. They break my heart because they're so sweet and so lovely and they really do need people to love them.
Kate Browne:
That's such a good point. I know I inherited my cat, but she was seven and she really needed a home and I don't think I'd get another kitten now. I just fell in love with her and, like you said, I knew exactly what I was getting, I wasn't having a silly kitten, you know, running up the curtains or whatever. And same with puppies. Puppies are a lot of work and there are so many beautiful dogs that have been given up for lots of sad reasons, like their owners are too old or, you know, they've moved overseas, so it's a really great point.
Dr Sarah Zito:
Yeah, and I think people need to remember that most of the animals in shelters are not there through any fault of their own. They're good animals, they just have unfortunately been exposed to circumstances, like you said, where something's happened to their owner, their owner's too old, the owner might have died, the owner might have children with health problems, they, you know, they can't have the animal anymore. We don't know what's happened in the lives of any of these people, but we do know that the animals are wonderful.
Sally McMullen:
And as well, what are some of the costs of owning a dog, any breed, say even if you are adopting, that might surprise new owners who've never had a dog before?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Yeah, well, the thing I hear most often is veterinary and medical care. People just don't seem to realise how expensive it can be and obviously we've talked about the fact that these kinds of breeds are more likely to have more expensive vet care and people can get pretty shocked by how much that costs. But people need to remember that this is often specialist care, it's intensive care, and those animals need vets and nurses looking after them 24/7. It is very good care that they get and it's worth the money, it's just a lot more than people think. And maybe the other thing that people don't think about is the care that their animal, particularly their dogs, but also their cats might need if they're away from the house a lot. That might be long periods during the day when they're at work or if they travel, and trying to make sure that they have enough money to do something about that. So for a dog that might be a dog walker or dog daycare. If you're going away, then having a dog or cat sitter or boarding or something like that and then transporting those animals if you do decide to move somewhere that they do need to with you. I don't think people realise how much these things cost.
Kate Browne:
Yeah, it's definitely an ongoing cost. And I know I walk past a dog daycare every morning on my way to work and it's adorable, but it's $75 a day. So yeah, like, I think that's a really good point, Sarah. If you are working a lot, even grooming and things like that, or, like you said, house sitters, it's, you know, I think people think about the upfront cost and maybe getting desexed, but there's, you know, I think we've got some data on how much on average it costs to own a cat or a dog, and I don't think people always think long term, that's a really good point.
Dr Sarah Zito:
And also that the data that we have is averages, and then you've got quite a lot more high-needs animals that are significantly more than those, kind of, average costs. Yeah, it's really important that people think about being able to give both the financial support to their animals, but also, you know, the physical support. So it's really important to spend time with your animals, whether that be a cat or a dog. They need you and they need your love and they need your attention.
Sally McMullen:
Yeah, that's so important. And if there was one final thought that you think our listeners should know, from this really big conversation, what do you think that would be?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Please, everyone, pass on the message, make sure that people know about the issues, talk to breeders about what you want, which is to see dogs who can breathe normally, and hopefully we can make that happen.
Kate Browne:
Do you have a campaign running at the moment through the RSPCA that people can get on board?
Dr Sarah Zito:
Yes, we do. We have the Love is Blind campaign. It's a joint campaign between the RSPCA and the Australian Veterinary Association, and it's aimed at doing just that, trying to improve the health and welfare of these dogs so that we can all love happy and healthy dogs.
Kate Browne:
Fantastic, and we'll share the details of that campaign in the show notes.
Dr Sarah Zito:
Thank you.
Sally McMullen:
Well, thank you so much for spending the time with us today. We've learnt so much and I think there's a lot for our listeners to take away from this, and hopefully it will help end this vicious cycle that we've found ourselves in.
Dr Sarah Zito:
Deep down, everyone loves these animals, they just need to be more aware of the issues and yeah, make a commitment to doing something to make things better for these dogs, because the dogs are the ones that are suffering and they can't speak for themselves, and so we need to do it for them.
Kate Browne:
Yeah, that is a hopeful note, that this can be reversed. These features can be bred out. We've got to see people wanting to do that and getting them healthy again.
Sally McMullen:
Yeah, exactly. It's all about that awareness part and I think that starts with the consumer and the people who are taking these dogs on.
Dr Sarah Zito:
They definitely do have a significant amount of power in motivating this change. If that's what they want, that's what the breeders are going to eventually work towards.
Sally McMullen:
So that's a wrap for another episode of Pocket Money. Thanks for joining us, everyone.
Kate Browne:
Yeah, I feel like I'm going to look at those cute little dogs down in dog park a little bit differently now.
Sally McMullen:
Oh yeah, poor angels.
Kate Browne:
From all the things we've covered, we've got all the links in the show notes, which you can find at finder.com.au/podcast that includes details on the Love is Blind campaign, plus links on pet insurance if you need to sort that out for your pet.
Sally McMullen:
As always, you can follow us on Instagram @pocketmoneypodcast. Hit us up on the Facebook group. We always love to get messages and suggestions for episode ideas. And make sure to subscribe to Pocket Money wherever you listen to your podcasts. Until next time, take care of your dog.
Kate Browne:
And your cats and your bunnies.
Sally McMullen:
Oh yes, your bunnies, especially.
Kate Browne:
And the G pigs. Love a G pig.
Sally McMullen:
Oh my god, yes, guinea pigs are good.
Sally McMullen:
Thanks for listening to Pocket Money from Finder. Head over to finder.com.au/podcast for the show notes for this episode. The Finder podcast is intended to provide you with tips, tools and strategies that will help you make better decisions. Although we're licenced and authorised, we don't provide financial advice. So please consider your own situation or get advice before making any decisions based on anything in our show. Thanks for listening
